chi sao

[monkjkd]

it's been an issue among jkd practitioners. bruce stated that he no longer used any elements from wing chun and moved further and further away from it. if bruce moved away from it there must have been a reason. many students that was taught by him conlcuded that chi sao is essential to what jkd is and including trapping as well. is there any truth to this?

[lssanjose]

Depends on when the student of bruce's was around, especially since Bruce went through an eight year evolutionary period, meaning a lot of changes ranging from the stance to the very methodology he ended up with when JKD was what it was right before his death

[Victor Colón]

monkjkd,
I think that saying that Bruce Lee no longer used any elements of wing chun is an incorrect statement. He evolved from wing chun and modified the elements that he used, but it definitely influenced Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do. I was taught chi sao as well as trapping and I teach them both as I was instructed. Both have value and help the practitioner hone skills such as sensitivity and feeling, adaptability and speed. Applied to fighting, trapping can be difficult, but opportunities do present themself and trapping finishes the fight nicely. As I have said before however, if you go into the engagement with the intention to trap, more than likely you may run into trouble. The question is, do either lend to being simple, direct and effective?

[monkjkd]

issanjose:
interesting point. it really depends on what period they were in when jkd was in a state of evolution.

originaljkd:
i've watched demonstrations on chi sao and trapping and my thoughts about it can get confusing when i read other articles about how it won't relate to real life fighting situations when practicing jkd. true, getting into the engagement wit the intention to trap will more likely get me in trouble. i'm not going to walk around putting my hand up towards my opponent for a "fight trap". my next question is, if it did influence jun fan jeet kune do to what it is today, do i have an option to study and train since i'm training on my own without a sifu or is it essential to the "jkd curriculm" that i must with no questions asked?

[Victor Colón]

Monkjkd,
Well, a JKD practitioner can adapt and fight at all ranges, and one of the four basic ranges is trapping (kicking, punching, trapping and grappling) than the answer is yes. Depending on which JKD lineage you derive may depend on the amount of time invested in specific to trapping. But I think that trapping is important to learn and deploy and you decide on how affective it is for you. As Ted Wong explains, he teaches trapping because it is good to understand, to understand the evolution of Bruce Lee’s art of Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do, and what Bruce Lee was thinking.

[monkjkd]

i jumped into jkd blindly without researching what jkd was all about and where it came from. i would so much want to understand the evolution but my resources are very limited. what is the best way to study or train one of the basic ranges if your training on your own?

[Victor Colón]

monkjkd, where are you located?

[monkjkd]

check private message

[sanucesv]

interesting, it it simply possible that bruce became so fast and culviated his awareness to such a high degree, that for him there was no longer a need to trap, since no once could intercept his attack. just my thought...but doesnt mean he discarded it, the structure was there if ever needed it.

[monkjkd]

agreed, the man was fast. originaljkd stated that trapping is one of the four basic ranges and also agree with his statement. it gets confusing at times when one jkd instructor says this and another jkd instructor says that. which is the truth? i believe trapping is a great tool to learn but i guess it really depends on how and when you can use trapping in a fight.

[jkdmanila]

as for applying trapping,
when you try doing it in free sparring with muay thai or a boxer, you can try checking if trapping can be applied.

as for bruce being so fast, you can be too, just practice footwork so you can understand why he dropped trapping. Sometimes you have to think like Bruce and understand his point of view and not from a Wing Chun man's opinion.

[Victor Colón]

You both make good points; what works well for one person, may not for the next. Adaptability and efficiency is key…if you can hit and not get hit whether by speed, trap, or otherwise you should win. Sooner or later you will come across a fighter with high trapping skills, and if you do not have a solid foundation you may not have developed a feel for what may be coming and perhaps not adapt affectively, or conversely, the ability to trap at the right moment when presented, even if those moments are sparse. On the other hand…when trapping you generally occupy an opponent’s weapon (your hand or arm with theirs for example) to strike with your other. But with footwork, slipping or rolling an opponents attack and using PIA for your attack for example, you leave all of your weapons available for attack rather than occupy one of your weapons with one of his. What are your thoughts on that aspect of trapping?

[monkjkd]

jkdmanila:
i didn't think of that. i keep forgetting the footwork is the most important part in jkd. without it, nothing will work. i realized i read something like that in teri tom's book "the straight lead" how she talked about a scene in enter the dragon where bruce and bob wall were at a "reference" point before the fight and bruce just used simple footwork and straight punched bob in the face.

originaljkd:
i can't really say anything on the aspect of trapping because i haven't trained on it but i see what your're sayin, or the details of it. i'll get to that part sooner or later.

[jkdmanila]

Originaljkd,
It's all about jkd's stance and footwork, you can be committed at a second, then disengage yourself after a split second. Maintaining the jkd on guard and not over commit in striking by compromising your cg looks basic, but is safe and using footwork to immediately get out of the situation.

Classical arts tend to be committed because their footwork are designed to be whole beat. Modern boxing has fast footwork, but structure wise not good enough because you still need to give more effort to hurt your opponent. Bruce kinda solved it by maintaining your on guard stance (which he modified) and move around at any angle or distance and be able to hurt your opponent by striking. The striking is effortless because of the sound stance adapted by boxers when fencing was considered the father of boxing, Bruce researched on that and adapted it. These findings were overlooked by fans/past students and thought Bruce was a demi god who can eliminate opponents by a flick of a finger, when all that he researched is about physics and practicality. We have to take note in his teens, he got a black eye or accept hit exchanges and in later years opted for hitting and not get hit when he got into JKD. It's not about being fast enough for chisao, but to be fast enough to knock someone's socks off and not get hit.

Wing Chun doesn't have that idea, so does modern boxing is doing something not in jkd's movement of fighting.

Hence, trapping in jkd is a setup to clear obstruction then hit again.....but not get hit in the process.

Monjkd,
It would be nice to train with someone in Ted Wong's lineage, you really need to sit down with those in some way trained with him, or the guy himself. The Teri Tom book already gave a good theoretical insight, but actually doing it would make you understand why Ted Wong is going out of his way to share what Bruce was doing before he unexpectedly died. At least, you would know I am not making it all up.

I hope you kinda get what I explained some of the character about JKD.

Victor,
Thanks for letting me share my opinion about what I trained in jkd.
Joel R

[Victor Colón]

Joel,
Good points and no need to thank me, your opinion is always welcome here.